Hello everyone,
So I bought a '99 Jeep TJ and I had to make a few fixes to prepare it to pass state inspection. Today, I tipped the passenger seat forward. To my surprise, the head rest started wobbling inside the seat.

I went ahead and took the cover off to expose the frame and foam and all. I found the head rest, which is just a piece of sheet metal, free floating inside the foam. It turns out that under the pressure of my hand, the four welds that attach the head rest to the tubular frame of he seat had all cracked.




It was clear to me that the seat was defective from the factory because either an unqualified welder assembled the seat or a flawed automated welding process was used. There was no fusion to the tubular frame - it was a "cold" weld.

I called Jeep's customer satisfaction hotline with the expectation that the seat would be repaired or replaced given that it is a vital part of the vehicle's safety system. After giving a detailed explanation of what happened, I was denied assistance because "the Jeep's warranty has expired." I made a calm, clear and coherent argument that lasted for about 30 minutes. Some of the things that stick out in my mind regarding the argument I made were:
1)
Jeep: "We're sorry but Daimler Chrysler cannot assist you in a repair or replacement because the warranty has expired."
Me: "I understand the warranty has expired. But we're talking about a safety issue here. This is cleary a manufacturing defect that could have lead to the serious injury or death of an occupant. It should be covered under the same guidlines as a seat belt."

2)
Jeep: "Well I see that you're the third owner. You have to consider that the Jeep may not have been maintained correctly. The previous owner may have even had children that could have tugged on the seat."
Me: "To the best of my knowlege, there sould be no maintenance regarding the structural integrity of a vehicle seat. We're talking about a piece of equipment that's supposed to minimize the effects of a collision. We're also talking about something that is required to meet stringent impact standards as posted forth by the Federal Highway Safety Administration. You mean to tell me the small childeren tugging on this seat could have damaged it? How could this seat even survive the impact of a 25lb human head at say 65 miles an hour?"
Jeep: "We can't speculate on anything like that."
Me: "I can't speculate either. All I'm saying is that there is no way this particular seat is safe or fit for use in my or any Jeep vehicle."

Keep in mind my Jeep has a clear vehicle history report.

So I went to the dealership down the road. There response after looking at it was: "Well I see that the seat is defective, but if you got off the phone with Jeep and they said they wouldn't warranty it, then we can't help you."

I made the same argument to the dealer as I did on the phone with Jeep.

I ended up calling Jeep back after I got back from the dealer and this is what they told me: "I'm sorry but the decision to deny service has already been made and it cannot be overridden." I even politely spoke to the supervisor. The decision not to repair/replace my clearly unsafe seat was set in stone.

What a disappointment. This is coming from a patriotic American serving in the U.S. Navy, buying an American made vehicle with roots deep in America's military history. I told them it was a tragedy that they wouldn't stand behind their product and its blantant safety issue. Then again, if my product were this crappy, I'm not sure I'd want to stand behind it either.

Please post something if you have anything to offer or comment about. I hope someone from Jeep reads these forums.

Thanks for your time,
Mark

When I rolled my jeep - the seat belt poped off - the seat broke - and the
roll-cage-not failed and nearly killed me. If I had had the air bag on I'm
sure they would have hurt me because without the working belts I was squished
into the box and on top of the wheel.

1) Tossed the seats - put in a steel seat cage and Beard high side bucket
seats - no collapsing metal to stab me or to break my back.
DC Tossed... em

2) Full welded six point roll cage with cross over and support braces.
Factory DC - tossed.

3) Five point racing harnesss (3-inch) two sholders to the cross over
arm behind the seat. Factory DC stuff - tossed.

Other upgrades I did were:

4) 3/8 all steel gas tank with integrated 3/8 steel skid - check valves and
24 gal capacity./ Took a nine inch dent - one inch deep but did not leak
a drop. Reused after roll - the pump (DC) died but the tank was a TANK...

5) Tuffy security box - removed entire back seat and put all my tools and stuff
in the box - saved my *** when I rolled because every thing stayed in the
back. Banged it back into shape and painted - totally reused.

6) Bullet Proof Rear Bumper - was so strong that when the roll cage folded the
jeep landed on the spare tire and did not collapge any further.
Cleaned it up and touched up the paint - reused - after the roll.
So much better than the ten pound piece of trash on the bumper.

7) Rear axle brackets - tossed - replaced with RE brackets

and on and on and on - Just Empty Every Pocket -The only good thing is
everything that was crap - I could replace. The tub and body are good -
The dash and air bags are good. The old six ran fine after the roll - all
I had to do was pull the plugs and get the oil out.


Now that I have bought a new jeep - rolled it - and rebuilt - I will just
buy the parts - and never never see the DC show room again...

Sorry for pumping sunshine up your skirt, but we don't buy jeeps because of the built in quality. We also don't buy them because of the helpful factory, or the considerate dealers. They are a very good example of all that is wrong with the American auto industry. They're perishing before our eyes, and for very good reasons. Some, maybe half, is attributable to the Union and workers. But make no mistake, the other half is fully on the shoulders of the management and the way they treat their few remaining customers.

Get used to the idea of buying used. They don't make jeeps anymore. What passes for the current Wrangler is just a H3 wannabe. No better or worse looking than the Element, but probably less dependable.

I've been buying Jeeps for 29+ years now. Only one dealer I've purchased from is still in business. If they went out of business, I drive up to Indy and celebrate. It was as shabby as any business transaction I've participated in. Chrysler deserves the dealers they have.

I can't offer any advice. What part of "you got screwed" don't you understand? Its how they do business these days. No, most foreign dealers will at least give you some consideration. Thats why they're taking the lions share of the market.

When you finally accept the inevitable, you have several choices. The best being take your seat frame to a good but friendly welder. Then take the other one, too. Chances are its no better. If you're so distrustful of the rest of the quality that you don't want to put it back in, buy aftermarket. Sure, its more expensive, but it might also be better (or not.)

Going to a junkyard and buying another pair or a seat with a bad cover but a good frame is an alternative. No guarantee you won't get the same thing.

In all this consider that most of their engineering efforts are directed toward forcing you to use their overpriced parts counter. For some things, like the computers, you're in a real bind.

OK, I've rethought my above answer and here's a more civil one. You can write the NHTSA and see if they have any other complaints on the same issue. If they have, you can probably add some weight to the case.

Probably your first step is to call back DC and this time take names. Be prepared for a long drawn out fight. Most of us can't leave our jeeps sit for a decade. But if others have experienced seat breakage, you might just find out that there is already an effort to have a safety recall. It at least can't hurt to try.

Keepind DC informed of your approach might just tempt them to reconsider. Probably not, but maybe. You can also send copies to your local state attorney generals office. Make sure you send copies of all your letters to the right person at DC. I have no idea who that would be, and finding the right management type will probably be the key to any compensation.

hey boss,

i have a pair of "high quality" hardly used shale seats out of an 04 if you desire the factory look. but i have to say i love mastercraft over oem.

I promise this will not be the gratuitous "my Jeep is fine" e-mail. However, I've not had any problems with my 2005 Unlimited. Of course, I haven't rolled it. On the other hand, my wife survived a high powered tension line falling across the front and zapping the crap out of the rig.

Not so much burns as bare metal from where the power basically fried the paint off. Wonderful timing - driving along coming up the Morongo grade and a kid flying down the hill in the opposite direction loses control, goes airborne across oncoming traffic (my wife), slams into a power pole, line comes down, Jeep gets zapped.

Anyway - wife and rig okay.

On a more positive note, our dealerships are rural and more in tune with the fact that our rigs go off road. The last comment we had from our Chrysler mechanic was "**** you dinged the crap out of the skid plate...where were you running?" 30 minutes down the road into Palm Springs and I can guarantee you that would not have been the attitude we would have gotten.

On a negative note, I'm not so willing to give our foreign friends a pat on the back for customer service either. We also have a Nissan Xterra and I can tell you the community gets screwed regularly by dealers and Nissan when it comes to their rigs, warranties, and anything else.

This is a definite safety issue. Unforunately, I think big business plays the odds - they move so much product that pissing off individuals is irrelevant and it is cheaper to settle out of court then make modifications. In their minds, admitting a mistake is not common decency it is opening themselves up to liability - and given the amount of litigation out there I can't say I agree, but I can't entirely blame them.

Which means, in general, if you want satisfaction I think you are going to have to go through an organization like Dick mentions or some sort of litigation. I can't believe I just said that...

I have to go be alone now...

When I rolled my rig in 2000 I looked around to see if anyone else was
having problems - ran into a lawyer who was in the process of a major
suite against DC - they collected all my photos and diagrams but in the
end because I was drive off-road I did not get any money - but did get
confirmation on the poor seats, belts, and roll cage.

I wonder how many people have died because they believed that the DC
roll cage was good, that the belts will work, and that the seat will
hold up. I always worried about the gas tank - but in the end it was
the first thing I damaged - because the factory gas tank skid - is
not a skid plate - so that was replaced in 98 three months after I
got the jeep. I had the tank, rear bumper, tuffy box in during the
roll - and they all held up - and saved my life - period. Wish I had
done the roll cage, seats, and belts but the lift and tire eat all my
money....

A year before I rolled it - I hit a toilet that fell off a truck on the
highway - I came so close to rolling it at 70 mph it is not funny. Then
I rolled it a year later -at zero miles an hour - and almost died - if
I had rolled it on the highway - that would have been all she wrote...
Bad spelling and all.

isnt it amazing, azjeeper, as i am sure many of us have had a problem with our jeep. but because we take them off road that excludes us from certain coverage. so does that mean that all modern jeeps are only posers and not built for off road use unless we build them?

oh well, at least building them is half the fun.

i have had both front outer axle seals go out on my 04 rubi. the first time they told me it was just excess lube that got on there. excess lube from what? the second one the tech told me that the front u-joint @ the knuckle was creating a vortex and pulling the brake fluid that was leaking from a faulty washer between the extended brake line i installed and the caliber. i replaced the washer and the axle was still leaking. both times i talked to the service manager and the issues were fixed under warrenty. funny how the service manager did not want to hear the stories i was being told by his techs.

Part of being a gear head is when it goes wrong you are responsable for both breaking it and fixing it - I think the best part of the internet is that people like me who are pushing the envelope - and beyond - can share critical info like - the roll cage is not good - the tank has problems - the seat belts pop off - etc.

And you can be wiser - and safer - if you take the time to read and understand. I am almost 50 now - learn from my mistakes...

Part of the reason the new Unlimited and the JK exist is because DC reads
these boards and they take the spin in - and adjust - the reason a Rubicon
exists is because we the TJ owners who came before - made changes to upgrade
our rigs and DC looked at that and said - WE CAN MAKE MONEY ON THAT.

The tank being moved to the center in the new JK is a result of a federal
mandate - I just wish that the cycle were faster. It took over a decade for
air bags to be mandatory - and another decade for them to get refined.

I wonder if DC will ever upgrade the roll cage - seats - belts ????

quote:

I wonder if DC will ever upgrade the roll cage - seats - belts ????

Since there's no profit in doing so, I imagine they will upgrade them using the same reasons for the other two things you mentioned...when the gov't tells them to.

Its hard to believe that they take in a request for more cup
holders - and process that - but something like the roll cage
is avoided.

JUST REMEMBER - THERE ARE NO A PILLARS IN A TJ - AND THIS WHAT
THE ROLL CAGE IS FOR - MAKES A FULL WELDED A - B - C PILLAR THAT
WILL NOT COLLAPSE.

I would tell the dealership or whomever it was you talked to that you are taking it over to the local newspaper and TV news groups.

They don't want bad press about safety issues and this is a huge one.

A head rest should not break like that.

My fat butt breaking the springs is a different story but not the head rest.

Some of the problem with the seats and other quality control type issues is the fact that these parts are no longer made in the good ol USA. Your Jeeps may be assembled here but parts are coming from all over the world where for 50 cents a day the workers tend to be a little lax in ther concern for the big fat american consumer(this is not a jab at anyones size I could use a diet myself). Then there boss over yonder who makes a dollar a day to make sure they are right doesnt really care either. Then they are boxed up shipped over here tariff free to DC and shoved into our Jeeps by a Union worker who is pissed off cause his buddys job making seats was shipped off to a foriegn land and his maybe next. The really messed up part of this is these things are costing them less money to build but yet cost the consumer more. Bottom like some fat cat in OH is getting rich of selling us third world parts in our Jeeps and he doesnt care a darn about US.

Wow, Dirty Bird, so hateful and negative. Notice I didn't say you were wrong....

This probably isn't a new thing. YJs and CJs were having that same problem, too. I had that on a 1985 CJ where the seat frame itself just broke down low in the back. Because I kind of liked the upholstry and did't think I could find another set for it (it was one of those gussied up Larry-dooos), we just carefully removed the hog rings, took the cover off along with the foam. There the metal just gave away. So a buddy welded it along with some reinforcement. Another friend knew a guy that worked at a "trim shop". (no, not an exotic dancer dive.) He showed us some kindness and took about 3 minutes to stuff a bunch of foam in hte right places. Then he had a cold one while a few of us wrestled the cover back on.

Its not all that hard to rebuild a seat once you've seen it done or done it yourself. But it all begs the question of why DC or now just C doesn't stand up and fix their defects.

My take on it is that we'll all be fixing old ones back up in the future. It may have been time to revamp the CJ/YJ/TJ line, but I'm not seeing off roaders flocking to the new J3 style hummerette.

My guess is that the failure rate on the seats isn't all that high, and they seem to fail at different places. Because of that the maker isn't real inclined to take care of the loyal customers. The dealer network just plain s&cks, and with so many failing or handling other brands there is litte incentive to fix problems of one time buyers. Worse, 2nd hand buyers. They just don't care.