Thought you might be interested in the events that have led up to my withdrawal from the park that I have used so often.
I have finally had all I can stand of the onsite management. I had a group of 15 in 5 jeeps attend the Toyota event last weekend, January 20, 21.if you don’t recall, I am the gentleman that spoke with you in regards to the various gate fees being charged at the mountain and the fact that I had to constantly listen to the manager, Lawton, tell his stories of enforcement every time I went to check in or out of the trails.
Half my group showed up Friday around 2 pm, we got a hotel but went to the mountain to regroup and do some trail clean up. I signed the log in sheet and headed out, as it turned out, there were too many rigs at old camp were we normally stay so we sent the campers in our group to the campsite just past clydes ravin. They set up their camps and we did some trails I had a husband wife joining us later to ride along and see what this thing was all about. As we sat around the latern about 9:30pm we got a call from the front of the park that the couple had showed up and needed directions. As you know, its just easier to go get them, then have them call you from the back of the mountain after one wrong turn. We headed up and to our surprise it was 2 couples. We had four jeeps go for the pick up and the wives agreed to let the 2 husbands ride back to camp in the jeeps as they followed. At this time it is about 10:30 pm and yes, we are aware of the deadline to wheel, but I told the guys we would hop off the road for one short run up the first part of twister. I pulled out of the top of twister back to the main road and headed back to camp with the other jeep. The rest of my group shows up with the night patrol fast on their heels with his red light blasting. The patrolman rushes up to camp asking who was out on the trails. At this time I was sitting in a camp chair with a beer in hand, I played dumb and asked him which jeep was he looking for. He then moved into my face, and mind you im 5’9” and weigh about 175lbs, and said he’s not here to hear my mouth, and he will kick the entire camp out for DRINKING ON THE TRAIL. I raised my voice and told him “we weren’t drinking on the trail, you see the cooler right there. At this point he calls Lawton on the radio and tells him that he has trouble at this camp with drinking and night wheeling. Yes, we were on the twister at 10:30 and shouldn’t have been, but for this guy to throw DRINKING into the mix was just to add drama to the situation. The patrolman left and came back with Lawton, Lawton said drinking will get you kicked off the mountain, and this is were I told him that his son, the patrolman, had embellished a little. We apologized for night wheeling and told him it wont happen again and Lawton said he wasn’t going to stand for any trouble on the mountain, he then said he has 4 people within 10 minutes of the mountain to come take care of any trouble that he has. We assumed this meant law enforcement.
The rest of the night went fine, Saturday we started early. We picked up 2 more jeeps and had a straggler from Cajun run with us, so a total of 7 jeeps running. It was getting dark so we wanted to try the last front trail that we could so we hit Houston creek, this trail took some time, we had 1 lean over and on the way out I pushed my front d-shaft into the side of my t-case. Baseball size hole in the case, and broken u-joint. So we pulled the the d-shaft and winched up. We had 6 more to get up since I was in the lead. We gathered up at the top across from the main road and the rv electrical camping at the winch pole. As we pulled the last rig out I got a call from family in tyler so I noticed the time 9:45 pm. I said I was broken and everyone agreed we were done, the Cajuns split off to their camp and we headed out onto the main road torwards clydes campsite, as I got to the bottom near twister I saw no jeeps behind me, I turned around to fin that my 2nd jeep had tore the valve stem on the way out of Houston and needed a spare. I pulled up with lights on his tire and got out the highlift and my spare to put on his jeep, right then the patrol truck pulls up into the middle of our work area with his red light going. At this time it is about 10 minutes after 10 AND WE ARE HIGHLIFTED UP ON THE MAIN TRAIL BETWEEN THE BERMS OF HOUSTON CREEK AND THE RV SITE? The patrolman gets out shouting that he told us Friday night to stay off the trails after 10 and this time we needed to leave. I pointed out the obvious tire issue and the fact the we were on the main trail, and the fact that it was 10:10p, and I told him that we past a landcruiser disabled on the trail that could appreciate his help more than harassing us. He informed me that it was not his job to help the landcruiser, his job was to keep people off the trails. He said I see you are drinking as well, referring to the bottle of wine that my wife and her new girlfriend had opened up to enjoy while we played in the dirt with this tire change. To set the scene I had 3 wives sitting on my rollbar with lights going facing the disabled jeep as myself and 6 others tried to change this tire. It was a sight to behold. The patrolman headed back to the office to get Lawton. We all got a cup of wine and laughed about how asinine this fellow was. In short order, Lawton and his son showed back up. Lawton came straight up to me and said he was sick of my attitude and that I needed to leave, as I tried to talk to Lawton, his son kept shouting over his shoulder, I then told him to get his fat *** back into his truck and do some good by finding that Toyota. He then informed me that he was a wrestler and knew hand to hand combat and that he just wished that I would put a finger on him. At this point I told Lawton that I wasn’t here to fight with him and that I had a hotel and we were done for the night. Lawton was still talking when I got into my jeep and took the group back to camp to get the cars to go to the hotel. Me my wife and the 2 other couples loaded up into the 2 cars and headed for the hotel. The jeeps would be loaded on the 3 jeep trailer in the morning, broken d-shaft t-case and all.
As it turns out after we had left, Lawton his son and his 3 buddies from the local sheriffs office went back out to the camp sight and made everyone, including the 4 people who had never met our group, get out of their tents so that they could search for the smart mouth punk that insulted his son. I was sound asleep in the hotel, as Lawton and his group harassed the camp for the next 2 hours. After my group told Lawton that I was in a hotel, and not camping, Lawton’s son said he would tow my jeep. My group said there was no need, we are leaving in the morning and the guy is in town asleep.
To make a long story even longer, I showed up around 8am to help load my jeep and it wasn’t there. I was informed that it was towed so I headed to the office. After counting to 10 and doing some deep breathing I went into the office and asked Lawton were my jeep was, he said he was busy and that he would get to me when he could. I told him I have wife, 2 couples, a truck and trailer waiting to head back to Dallas and he is holding us all up. I asked for the tow company and I would just chalk it up to a lesson learned after passing me over twice he mumbled that he didn’t have time to look up the number. I then asked “what is the name” , Lawton said Albright tow. I said Albright towing? He then said “Albright garage, its in Gilmer” I asked for the number, and he said “call information” so off I headed my wife and my friend and his wife in 1 car, the other couple in their car, my friend with 2 jeeps on his 3 jeep trailer, and one more truck and trailer outfit. As you know everything in Gilmer is closed on Sunday. But after stopping at the local gas station the clerk knew of Albrights which was in the opposite direction. We turned the caravan around and ended up at some shop slash mobile home slash salvage yard. I got out knocked, called the number on the sign knocked again then walked around towards the back. As I approached the back garage, something that looks like it started out as a German Shepard starting running for me, luckily he had a chain on. After checking my shorts I went back to the front to call the number on the sign. As I got to the front the owner was opening the door, I asked about about the jeep and he knew nothing, he then called his brother, the other Albright, at home in his sleep. He knew nothing about the jeep and wasn’t happy with the early phone call. At this point I have my wife call Lawton and ask where the **** jeep is, obviously I was in no mood to talk to the man. My wife tells Lawton the Albrights know nothing of the jeep Lawton tells my wife to “just sit tight and when I can get around to it I will get you the number”
We hang up and call the sheriff to report the jeep stolen. The sheriff gets our information and calls Lawton. The sheriff calls us back at 10:30 am and tells us Lawton had it towed to Johnny’s (not sure of this name) outside of town and not Albright’s. we get the caravan rounded up and head towards Mt. Pleasant to the towing company. Lawton had told this gentleman that he had me arrested for drinking and need the jeep towed, I told the guy what had happened and he said that sounds about right. “that old man has done this several times before” As we sat around the breakfast table in Pittsburg we kept laughing about how financially damaging it would have been for that park if that German Shepard mix had bitten me???
Thanks for the memories they really left an impression on the 20 people involved.
the irony is, i had complained 2 months before that of the 3 rigs going in, each was charged a different rate to do the same camping, wheeling.
again we were not drinking on trails, we were in camp or on the main dirt road back to camp. the drinking issue was just magnified to justify the harrassment. i had written a letter questioning the 3 different weekend rates that my last group was charged to do the exact same wheeling, since that time we have had issues with this property manager and his son
that's a messed up situation indeed and, after reading all replies in the forums linked and then linked again, it's something that would need attention to not make it worse 'just' because of the 'managers'.
We're trying to get something similar to BMRA going in Crockett County, but negative publicity like this is not exactly helpful
A couple of weeks ago I had my first experience at BMRA when a buddy of mine (who lives just North of Dallas) and I went over there in his Juki (more Jeep than Zuki ). It looks like a fun place to go wheeling and that day everybody on the trails was pretty cool about helping eachother out and such, especially since there were rigs from bonestock to comp rigs.
We didn't run into any problems, but we were only there for the day We are planning on making it up there pretty soon though with a couple of rigs for a full weeekend (camping). We'll have to see how that goes I guess.
Granted it sounds like the guy( Lawton) was trying to be a dick....you cant really place all the blame on him for what happened as well IMO, rules are rules and it sounds like a few were broken and you gave a power trip hungry fella a reason to flex his authority..a few of our club members with LA4x4 were there at gilmer that wknd as well and got word of what happened and have read your post on other places that was linked to another forum. We all know here are 2 sides to every story,but this is what one the 2 guys who was in the office when you stormed in there had to say......not my words i wasnt there and no one is trying to start anything, but i figured it was worth posting, this is what was said....
Quote: Originally Posted by lifenajeep,Jan 28 2006, 02:41 PM I have a little different perspective on this as Todd Rouseau and I were in the office when this guy came in and had his "discussion".
This guy was a butt from the start. First off, Todd and I were already in there getting our check out stuff done and this guy and his girl came in and basically pushed us aside and started yelling at Lawton. We could all still smell alcohol on him. The collision of these two didn't quite go like he said. Lawton was trying to take care of Todd and I and this guy got wild and started demanding that Lawton give him everything he was demanding. Well, Todd and I just kinda stepped back and let this guy vent.
Lawton said that he has problems with this guy everytime he is there. I'll add to the quote were we saw the differences.
Quote: To make a long story even longer, I showed up around 8am to help load my jeep and it wasn’t there. I was informed that it was towed so I headed to the office. After counting to 10 and doing some deep breathing I went into the office and asked (more like demanded to know where his Jeep was while calling Lawton "out of his mind" and saying he was going to sue TMTC) Lawton were my jeep was, he said he was busy ( with two good looking guys from La4x4) and that he would get to me when he could (this is true as he was trying to finish with Todd and I). I told (yelled at) him I have wife, 2 couples, a truck and trailer waiting to head back to Dallas and he is holding us all up. I asked (after argueing for 5 minutes about him being drunk and what had been going on) for the tow company and I would just chalk it up to a lesson learned after passing me over twice ( yep there were two of us but this guy never stopped calling names and threatening Lawton )he mumbled that he didn’t have time to look up the number. I then asked “what is the name” , Lawton said Albright tow. I said Albright towing? He then said “Albright garage, its in Gilmer” I asked for the number, and he said “call information” ( he actually handed him the phone book) so off I headed my wife and my friend and his wife in 1 car, the other couple in their car, my friend with 2 jeeps on his 3 jeep trailer,
Lawton also said that the time he was on the trail was more like 11:30 not 10:30. I just met Lawton and couldn't care less about either of them but the guy that got his Jeep towed was a butt and Lawton tried to be very diplomatic about it. If the guy broke the rule and then was even half as arrogant on the trail as he was that morning then I am willing to bet this should have been done a long time ago. I personally don't want some drunk guy getting on the trails that late and killing himself and screwing up the place for everyone.
that being said another guy did say he does think it was around 10:30 and not 11:30 getting off the trail.
and quote of the day....
Quote: Originally Posted by lcwldcat,Jan 30 2006, 02:55 PM the wheeler finally ran into someone that had a bigger pisser.
Looks like this post pretty much sums it up. I had this feeling from the beginning but was giving you the benefit of the doubt. I read the entire post with the attatchments to verify my first feeling. Bottom line is you started something a long time ago with the first rules infraction and you finally got punished to a level that was equal to your screw-up. A man will admit his faults, pay his dues and move on. Can you? Something else you and others might not have thought about. Since I was part of the "founders" of TMTC many years ago I got to sit in with the bigwigs from Austin and hear their take on the whole "offroading" scene in Texas. If you think that for one minute that they wouldn't shut everything down due to some bad publicity you are crazy. I still have copies of the original contracts written between the first board members and the State of Texas. For the abridged version, it says, since they granted us the 80% of $1.2 million to purchase the property they can pretty much take it away without any repercussions if the contract is breached. Criminal negligence for not policing the people on the property resulting in a law suit (which you already have threatened) would definately be grounds to do just that. So, forgive me for not feeling your pain. Oh and speaking of lawsuits.... you started this thread here (and other places)to inform people of "facts" that affected you and others. This could definately be construed as detrimental to their business. Already in the link you posted there were a few that said they would decline to go although they were considering it. If any of your "facts" were proven as untrue you could be held liable for defamation and be sued yourself.
Note: I'm not a representative of TMTC nor even a member for some years now due to other constraints. I do however know how much work it was to make TMTC what it is today. And I know MANY others that have spent countless of their own hours, dollars, resources,etc. to get it there probably don't give a **** about why you think you should be able to bend the rules to have a little extra fun only to jeopardise what so many have worked so hard for. So.... relax and move on. But by all means, follow the rules. Peace out.
that is about right. almost to the tee, yes i was pieeved at my rig being gone, so they did hear that arsshat send me to ALBRIGHT GARAGE! because that sure as heck wasnt were the old bastid had my jeep towed to. i went knocking on albrights garage to find the dog, then the sherriff found out the that lawton had lied to us and sent us to the wrong place....sorry if i wasnt so pleasant after finding my jeep towed off the mountain, but if not for the counting to ten, i definately would have been more unpleasant.
Granted it sounds like the guy( Lawton) was trying to be a dick....you cant really place all the blame on him for what happened as well IMO, rules are rules and it sounds like a few were broken and you gave a power trip hungry fella a reason to flex his authority..a few of our club members with LA4x4 were there at gilmer that wknd as well and got word of what happened and have read your post on other places that was linked to another forum. We all know here are 2 sides to every story,but this is what one the 2 guys who was in the office when you stormed in there had to say......not my words i wasnt there and no one is trying to start anything, but i figured it was worth posting, this is what was said....
Quote: Originally Posted by lifenajeep,Jan 28 2006, 02:41 PM I have a little different perspective on this as Todd Rouseau and I were in the office when this guy came in and had his "discussion".
This guy was a butt from the start. First off, Todd and I were already in there getting our check out stuff done and this guy and his girl came in and basically pushed us aside and started yelling at Lawton. We could all still smell alcohol on him. The collision of these two didn't quite go like he said. Lawton was trying to take care of Todd and I and this guy got wild and started demanding that Lawton give him everything he was demanding. Well, Todd and I just kinda stepped back and let this guy vent.
Lawton said that he has problems with this guy everytime he is there. I'll add to the quote were we saw the differences.
Quote: To make a long story even longer, I showed up around 8am to help load my jeep and it wasn’t there. I was informed that it was towed so I headed to the office. After counting to 10 and doing some deep breathing I went into the office and asked (more like demanded to know where his Jeep was while calling Lawton "out of his mind" and saying he was going to sue TMTC) Lawton were my jeep was, he said he was busy ( with two good looking guys from La4x4) and that he would get to me when he could (this is true as he was trying to finish with Todd and I). I told (yelled at) him I have wife, 2 couples, a truck and trailer waiting to head back to Dallas and he is holding us all up. I asked (after argueing for 5 minutes about him being drunk and what had been going on) for the tow company and I would just chalk it up to a lesson learned after passing me over twice ( yep there were two of us but this guy never stopped calling names and threatening Lawton )he mumbled that he didn’t have time to look up the number. I then asked “what is the name” , Lawton said Albright tow. I said Albright towing? He then said “Albright garage, its in Gilmer” I asked for the number, and he said “call information” ( he actually handed him the phone book) so off I headed my wife and my friend and his wife in 1 car, the other couple in their car, my friend with 2 jeeps on his 3 jeep trailer,
Lawton also said that the time he was on the trail was more like 11:30 not 10:30. I just met Lawton and couldn't care less about either of them but the guy that got his Jeep towed was a butt and Lawton tried to be very diplomatic about it. If the guy broke the rule and then was even half as arrogant on the trail as he was that morning then I am willing to bet this should have been done a long time ago. I personally don't want some drunk guy getting on the trails that late and killing himself and screwing up the place for everyone.
that being said another guy did say he does think it was around 10:30 and not 11:30 getting off the trail.
and quote of the day....
Quote: Originally Posted by lcwldcat,Jan 30 2006, 02:55 PM the wheeler finally ran into someone that had a bigger pisser.
Looks like this post pretty much sums it up. I had this feeling from the beginning but was giving you the benefit of the doubt. I read the entire post with the attatchments to verify my first feeling. Bottom line is you started something a long time ago with the first rules infraction and you finally got punished to a level that was equal to your screw-up. A man will admit his faults, pay his dues and move on. Can you? Something else you and others might not have thought about. Since I was part of the "founders" of TMTC many years ago I got to sit in with the bigwigs from Austin and hear their take on the whole "offroading" scene in Texas. If you think that for one minute that they wouldn't shut everything down due to some bad publicity you are crazy. I still have copies of the original contracts written between the first board members and the State of Texas. For the abridged version, it says, since they granted us the 80% of $1.2 million to purchase the property they can pretty much take it away without any repercussions if the contract is breached. Criminal negligence for not policing the people on the property resulting in a law suit (which you already have threatened) would definately be grounds to do just that. So, forgive me for not feeling your pain. Oh and speaking of lawsuits.... you started this thread here (and other places)to inform people of "facts" that affected you and others. This could definately be construed as detrimental to their business. Already in the link you posted there were a few that said they would decline to go although they were considering it. If any of your "facts" were proven as untrue you could be held liable for defamation and be sued yourself.
Note: I'm not a representative of TMTC nor even a member for some years now due to other constraints. I do however know how much work it was to make TMTC what it is today. And I know MANY others that have spent countless of their own hours, dollars, resources,etc. to get it there probably don't give a **** about why you think you should be able to bend the rules to have a little extra fun only to jeopardise what so many have worked so hard for. So.... relax and move on. But by all means, follow the rules. Peace out.
i welcome an investigation... if one were smart, they would not be so naeive to what is going on out on that mountian, but, hey, maybe it was all my fault and i got what i deserved, so did the 3000 other people that seem to be chiming in on this matter, maybe WE are the problem. i can live with that, but will barnwell?
If 3000 other off-roaders think and act similar to yourself (I hope they don't) then it's no wonder the 4-wheeling community has such a bad image to people who don't wheel. It almost seems like you're pissed mostly because you got "one-upped" and are looking for some revenge. After all,,,, that is the only reason for dragging this thing out anymore, right?
i dunno?!?<>. yeah you screwed up on some of those rules, but boss hog and his gang shouldnt act like that. i mean come on... your handling it better than i am. one time i got my jeep towed due to some stupid girl(long story). 1st thing you think your rig is stolen so you FLIP!!. so bloods up, find out its towed. go to the yard and find out they didnt flat .tow it. they just picked up the front end.. well 4x's dont do that. you gotta flat tow em... i was PISSED!. the guy got mouthy and i was about to get a felony for killing this guy even though he was like 6'4 and 230. im 6'1 200. unprofessional people just erk me esp when they are dealing with my property.
you handled it well if thats the true case. no bagging from me. esp when you were broke down on the trail and the jerk gets on you for 4xing after 10. WTF.
Dont ever have a drunk spotter!
Posts: 2862 | Location: Rancho Cucamonga, CA | Registered: December 12, 2002
Originally posted by owtcast: If 3000 other off-roaders think and act similar to yourself (I hope they don't) then it's no wonder the 4-wheeling community has such a bad image to people who don't wheel. It almost seems like you're pissed mostly because you got "one-upped" and are looking for some revenge. After all,,,, that is the only reason for dragging this thing out anymore, right?
keep thinking that, when you catch him on a bad day and he tows you, ya, i think it must be the 3000 people, not THE ONE MANAGER???
Originally posted by brokenUjoint: i dunno?!?<>. yeah you screwed up on some of those rules, but boss hog and his gang shouldnt act like that. i mean come on... your handling it better than i am. one time i got my jeep towed due to some stupid girl(long story). 1st thing you think your rig is stolen so you FLIP!!. so bloods up, find out its towed. go to the yard and find out they didnt flat .tow it. they just picked up the front end.. well 4x's dont do that. you gotta flat tow em... i was PISSED!. the guy got mouthy and i was about to get a felony for killing this guy even though he was like 6'4 and 230. im 6'1 200. unprofessional people just erk me esp when they are dealing with my property.
you handled it well if thats the true case. no bagging from me. esp when you were broke down on the trail and the jerk gets on you for 4xing after 10. WTF.
i went to pick it up from the tow yard to find out that he sent me to the wrong yard in the first place, that alone is inexcuseable
). It looks like a fun place to go wheeling and that day everybody on the trails was pretty cool about helping eachother out and such, especially since there were rigs from bonestock to comp rigs.
